00:00 Hey everybody, I'm Kent C. Dodds and I'm joined by my friend, Michelle Beckles. Say hi, Michelle. Hi, everyone. So nice to join you. It's so awesome to have you here. I am, let's see, Michelle, you and I met, actually, you know what?

00:17 I think we met first at React Miami at year one. Is that right? I don't know that I met you in person before then. No, that was definitely where we met first. Awesome. Well, and I've not missed a year of React Miami. We were just talking about next year and I put it in my calendar.

00:35 I don't plan on missing a year of React Miami ever. And actually, there aren't a lot of conferences I can say that about. I think it's just React Rally and React Miami. And then, of course, RemixConf. That was only two years that transformed into Epic Web, but that doesn't count because I run it.

00:51 So, yeah, I really like React Miami. I love what you're putting together out there. And yes, I've really treasured our relationship, our friendship since then as well.

01:04 So I would love for people to get to know you as well. So could you introduce yourself to the audience here? Oh, yeah. Thanks for saying all of those nice things, too. And I really enjoyed our friendship over the years as well.

01:18 So my name is Michelle. I organize React Miami and I also work for G2I on developer health initiatives. So anything to support mental, physical health of software developers in the industry.

01:30 I co-authored like an e-book that we have for free online called the Developer Health Operating System or the Dev Health OS. So that's where we're going to kind of focus today.

01:42 Super. Yeah, I love it. With G2I, I want to talk a little bit about that first and what you're doing there. Actually, you know what? Before that, I want to just call out for folks watching this.

01:56 If you're watching this, you haven't heard of React Miami, you should definitely go check it out. You could be watching this years into the future, and I hope that React Miami is still a thing even then.

02:08 But one of my favorite parts of this last React Miami was being able to go and watch Messi score two goals and assist in a third. That was one of the coolest things. And I hope that we get to do that again next year. Do you know whether there's a game planned around the time you're planning React Miami?

02:26 They have not. They won't release the schedule for a few more months. But if there is, then we will for sure try and organize that again. I can't promise that you will see Messi score a goal at any of the future React Miamis, but it was amazing.

02:41 We got to see him score two goals, and he's a god. It's so good. It's really a special thing to watch him play. I mean, I want to also appreciate all the other amazing athletes on the field there, too.

03:00 But there's a reason that Messi gets so much attention, and it's because he's just so good. Yeah, he's playing in a different realm, like a different dimension. He's seeing the game. I recommend if anybody has a chance to see him,

03:16 I mean, probably if you're watching this years in the future, he's probably going to be retired. So sorry about that, but man, try and get on it. Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, so let's talk about G2I a little bit. Can you tell us a little bit about what G2I is and how you got a job there?

03:35 Yeah, so G2I is a company that places developers in the companies of our clients. So we help with things like augmenting staff, specifically in the developer realm. So G2I does technical interviews. We have a community of our developers.

03:51 And then when our clients have open roles, we help match our developers to the roles that we think they'd be good for. And so we have a little community of developers at G2I. And then I myself am a React developer.

04:09 So when I first was introduced to G2I, I actually met the founder of G2I, Gabe Greenberg, in the local South Florida tech ecosystem. And we met because we were working on React Miami together first before I even worked at G2I.

04:27 And I was an extremely burnt out developer. I mean, so, so badly that I actually had developed this stress related heart condition that still affects me to this day. But especially when I was constantly dealing with like really serious stress and burnout like years ago,

04:45 it was something that affected me like all day, every day. So that was really uncomfortable. So I just like Gabe, the CEO, he also deals with his own chronic health issues and has gone through his own journey.

05:00 So I just remember at the end of one of our React Miami lunches where we were talking about planning and stuff, he was just like, I want to make my company the first company that really prioritizes the health of developers. And I was just like, it was like one of those things where it's like, I've never heard anybody say that and I needed it.

05:16 And I really wanted him to focus on it. And I didn't actually see myself working with him, but I was like, you should do it. So when I first kind of encountered G2I, it was through working on React Miami.

05:32 So I actually reached out to Gabe to be a developer at G2I to be a part of his program and platform and everything. And he's like, yeah, I can hook you up with doing that. But I feel like with our shared story, our shared interests and our passion for wanting things to be better,

05:49 I think that there's something else that we can do here for you to work on the team with us and just focus specifically on promoting the health of developers. Yeah, there are aspects of that story that I don't know that I've heard before.

06:05 So that is really interesting. I was under the impression that you were working at G2I and that that was when you decided to do React Miami. And yeah, it's interesting that you were working together on that.

06:20 And I'm curious, I want to dive into a little bit of the origin story with React Miami and then kind of go deeper into your work at G2I with the health of us. So what what was the I mean, I know you and I know that you're very invested in your local community

06:38 and you do a lot of really awesome things for the community. I'd love to talk about that a little bit. But yeah, what was the primary driving force for creating React Miami?

06:54 I mean, several years and, you know, just starting off volunteering to then being on councils and then chairs of councils and boards and then chairs of boards, like just constantly going wherever I could teaching endlessly, like teaching adults,

07:11 teaching kids about coding and all this stuff. So super involved there, just really felt passionate about building the local South Florida tech ecosystem there. But it was yeah, like there's still a lot of work to be done.

07:26 And there's, you know, a lot that people can help do. So that was where I was always really passionate. And around 2020, 2021, the tech industry in Miami just sort of boomed like it just kind of blew up.

07:41 Everybody was looking at Miami and it was kind of like jarring. It was like a blessing and a curse in a way, which is like maybe that's an unpopular opinion. But it was exciting because it's like, wow, we really want to we really want to grow our tech industry here.

07:56 But then it felt like, oh, there's a little out of control. But at the same time, I think like you what is that like? Like luck is like opportunity plus preparation.

08:11 I remember this moment where it was just like, wow, this feels like if there if there was any chance at getting an international developers conference to stick in Miami, capitalizing on it right now, striking while the iron is hot right now is the time to do it.

08:26 So I had gone to like conferences like Cascadia JS and just man, like these speakers are so good. They're from all over the world. It's like, you know, you fly out to things like that. And I wanted that in my backyard.

08:41 I wanted that at home. And so I was kind of thinking about this on my own. I had like organized a lot of like local community events like, OK, let's take it to the next level. At the same exact time, Gabe Greenberg had like tweeted that he was like,

08:56 I think somebody should organize a react conference in Miami. And I was like, oh, I was just thinking this, like, let's do it. Like, let's let's do it. And I talked to Gabe and he's kind of like, I didn't mean me.

09:11 I met some conference organizers can come in and do it and I can give my opinions or whatever. And for a while he was like, do I will sponsor. And I'm like, we're the locals. Let's like, let's go.

09:26 That's how we kind of started doing react Miami. And yeah. And it was perfect timing. It was good that we started it then because we had a phenomenal first year. Everybody told us like, oh, conferences always take a loss the first year or like you don't sell a lot of tickets.

09:43 And we didn't take a loss and we sold out. And so it was exciting. And it was like really fun to keep that momentum going. That is awesome. I'm glad that it was so successful for you that first year too.

09:56 And because it is nerve wracking. Like, is anybody going to buy a ticket to this brand new thing? So I'm glad you struck when the iron was hot. And and I think that there's something for people to take away who are listening,

10:11 because I know that a lot of people who go through Epic React are going to be folks who work at a big company at a in a big city. And there's a bunch of events going on all the time. And and that that is also great.

10:26 But there are still a lot of people who don't work at a big city and there. But they want to, like, bring some tech into their community.

10:37 And something that I've really admired about what you do is that you really seem to involve the local city as a part of your event as well.

10:48 Which I think is really cool. And so I want to ask about, like, for those people who want to develop a community around them where they are. What are some of the things that you have found work really well?

11:03 And like maybe even some encouragement for people to to build where they live? Yeah, I think I think organizing events can come across immediately as like very intimidating, especially if you're inspired by well-produced events.

11:22 It can feel like, wow, I'm not a professional and I can't do this. But there's so much that can that is so attainable.

11:32 I would say try and start off as minimal as possible, because especially if you live someplace where there aren't a lot of tech events, that doesn't mean that nobody wants that.

11:45 And so I it's actually like amazing how far you can get with just you pick a location and you pick a date and you're like, this is a JavaScript developers meetup or this is just a general developers meetup. And you just give people a place to meet. You don't even have to have a sponsorship or a budget or anything.

12:04 People are happy to go and pay for their own drinks or their own food. They just want to meet other people and talk about things. So like you don't even have to get caught up with things like programming. Do we have a speaker? Do we have a presentation? Do we have a sponsor?

12:16 Like if you want to get started, I would just say find a venue, like literally a restaurant like or a bar or like something like that. Pick a day and a time and then just promote it in your local community to just try and get it out there however you can.

12:34 And I mean, people will show up like I I feel very confident in saying that people will show up if you give them a place to go. And people will be so grateful for that as well. And so then later down the road, if you want to have like an AV set up where people show demos and like that's all great for later.

12:53 But to get started, it doesn't really require a whole lot. And people will be very happy with that. I think the hardest thing more than anything else is just maintaining consistency so that you can grow.

13:07 So if you were going to focus your energy and effort on anything, it's it's to build something that you can maintain or that you can work on together with people that can also maintain it. And then once you have that, then build on it.

13:20 That is terrific advice. I found with a lot of things, it takes consistency for people to to trust you with their time and like to kind of put that they'll put your event in their calendar and they'll expect it to be on a regular cadence.

13:38 Whereas if you just kind of, oh, you know what? I'm not feeling it today. Canceled. And people are like, well, I I blocked that time out. And now like that evening, I said no to somebody. And now. So now I don't trust you anymore.

13:52 And so, yeah, that that consistency really matters a lot. And the only time. So I started the remix meetup locally here. And the only time that I ever would cancel, I handed it off to somebody else now.

14:05 But I advise him also that the only time you really cancel is if it's literally on Christmas or Christmas Eve or something like otherwise, even if you're like, well, everybody's out of town. It's like two days before the 4th of July or something like you just make it happen anyway.

14:23 And if you can't be there, like find somebody else who can fill in and just now. And I like what you said, too, about keeping it low key so that it's it's not a huge lift for you or anybody else who wants to take over.

14:38 So like if it's just at a bar or a restaurant or something, then it's easy for you to just say, hey, I'm not going to make it. Could you just facilitate make sure everybody knows where to go and whatever. And that's easy for people. So I love that that advice. And I encourage anybody to get your community together.

14:57 And actually, I also want to ask your take on like the value of in-person interactions. Like, can't we just like join a discord and doesn't that count for community or like what is the value in meeting people in person like this?

15:15 It's really hard to explain what that value is. It's like, you know it because you feel it. But I think that that feeling is so valuable. I think I think. Well, first of all, meeting people locally, you're just going to meet like.

15:32 Like all kinds of people that you didn't expect to meet that, like people who are not really like prone to joining a discord or being active on Twitter or wanting to be on online communities. They just want to go like have like a fun meetup with people after work or something.

15:49 So you get to meet a lot of people who might not be in those online communities, but they live near you. And that's really special. Like on Saturday, I was just at the local farmers market and I saw, you know, my mentor's brother, who's also a developer.

16:06 And those things are like so fun. So there's just like a lot of shared experiences and a lot of shared value and like things that you can do with people. But I think also just generally speaking, like trying not to be like try not to speak too out of turn here.

16:23 But I think human beings like naturally we just play such a high value on in-person interactions and meeting people in person. And when you meet somebody in person like Ken Wheeler had this tweet like a few months ago, I've never met an enemy in person. I've never I've never met an enemy at a tech conference or whatever.

16:42 And the lesson there is that all of these kind of quabbles and hot takes and stuff like once you meet people in person, there becomes like this nuance that's suddenly found where people can be like, I see your side and I see your side.

16:59 And like you bond on other things and there's just kind of like this deeper connection that forms that's really healthy. And like you get you you you can create a lot from that. You know, you meet people that you you want to build things with or you want to do business with.

17:15 And so I really love in person, both digging in deeper to your local ecosystem where you're going to be able to probably turn up a lot more of like economic opportunity with what you're building. And then also going into other ecosystems and learning what people are doing there and bringing it back home.

17:33 Like, I love going out west to Cascadia J.S. or like even to San Francisco, seeing what people do and then coming back and being like, I like this thing. Like, we should try this. Mm hmm. I love that perspective. And I do think that there is something special about seeing people in person.

17:52 I love that you said like the nuance just kind of appears when you're in person and where on platforms like X, like nuance is not allowed. Like, it's just you're you're either on that side of the line or on this side of the line.

18:08 And that's it. And and I always really appreciate meeting people in person because then all of a sudden the posts that I read from them are a lot more measured. And like I can understand their perspective better and everything is much better.

18:23 And so I applaud you, Michelle, for doing things to bring people together. And I look forward to the years into the future that you're doing this, whether it's with React Miami or whatever else comes up in the future for you.

18:39 So now I would love to talk about the developer health OS. And you talked a little bit about your shared background with Gabe and that your burnout that you experienced before heading over to G2I.

18:55 And yeah, you started wanting to go into G2I as a developer, but Gabe wanted to do something else. So let's talk about what that something else was. Yeah. So it was something that we really didn't even know what it was when we started talking about it.

19:13 To be honest, we kind of formed the job title through a couple of different conversations. But basically, we started with the problem and the problem is burnout. And it feels cyclical and it feels like something that everybody's experiencing, especially at the height of lockdown, which.

19:32 So for context, when Gabe and I were having these conversations, it was like fall 2021. So, yeah, there were a lot of people were really like they were really they were struggling. They were feeling like frustration. They were feeling tired.

19:49 They were feeling burnt out. And you saw it all over Twitter. And it felt like it felt like there weren't really conversations that were like solution oriented. They were like more like commiseration. And I was like in that bucket, too, right?

20:06 Like I'm dealing with my issues and I'm like I was having kind of an existential crisis where I'm like, is every job that I ever have in tech going to be like this? Is this how the industry is? Was I naive to think that I could have a great job that was high paying and have work life balance like this?

20:22 It makes sense that I have to sacrifice something and it looks like it's going to have to be my health. And so I was kind of having like this thing where I'm feeling very helpless. But Gabe is Gabe has gone through a lot in his personal journey. He, you know, has been dealing with chronic illness for years.

20:42 And when I met Gabe, he was on the other side of that. Like he had definitely gone through those same emotions, those same feelings of like feeling hopeless. But he he pushed through and he he tried a lot of different treatment options and he found some things that work for him.

21:00 And so when I was talking to him, he was in this completely different mindset of like solutions are possible. There are like procedures to be to like getting better or to like maintaining your health that you can follow and you can.

21:14 And so like a lot of the beginning was kind of like him kind of convincing me that this is like an opportunity and this is a thing. I was really excited about it because I wanted to be hopeful that this could exist. And through it, you know, I took, you know, Gabe's not a developer, but I'm a developer.

21:34 So he was like, you're the developer. This is like you want to talk about health. I know a lot about health. Like we're going to put these things together, like take your experience, take my knowledge and like glue it together. And so we started working on like a bunch of different things.

21:49 The developer health operating system being the thing that we probably worked on for the longest, like two years before we put it out there, which is it's a text that goes through burnout, recovery, prevention and then optimum performance of just all these things that we learned either on our own or together, just synthesized.

22:09 It's awesome. And it's so much material. Honestly, it looks a bit like. So for those who are watching, you should just pull it up right now. Dev health OS dot com. If you look at it, I feel like I'm looking at like a documentation for a library or something. I'm like, where are the code snippets?

22:33 I think I'm guessing you're actually building on top of documentation technology, right? Like docs for open source systems. This is built in Astro Starlight, which is a library for documentation. But it was one of those things where it's like, this is for developers. So like, what are the ergonomics for developers for like finding information that they need?

22:54 Like a documentation website. Yeah, it's perfect. And it's awesome. And there's so much here. It must have taken you so long. And there's like nice illustrations and all sorts of really cool things in here that just really, really great information.

23:10 Is it only for people who have experienced burnout before and like they're really suffering in their jobs? Or what if I'm a developer who's just like, I don't know what y'all are talking about. I'm loving this, you know, 16 hours a week grind. It's been awesome for me. Like, who is this for? Yeah, I have this.

23:30 So it's really for everyone. It's not even just for developers. I think predominantly knowledge workers. But there are so many people that I've heard like, you know, I've heard people share. Brooks, I think it was on the Remix team. He was like, oh, my wife's a teacher. Like, I want to share this with her. I think he's the one that said his wife's a teacher.

23:49 But somebody definitely was like, my wife's a teacher and I want to share this with her too. So it can really be like for anybody. We just kind of write it in the perspective of a developer. But one thing about burnout that I have an opinion on is that I guess like most of the time people do not know the first time they burn out.

24:08 Or maybe the first several times they burn out until they like start to recognize a pattern. So I think like becoming aware of something helps you like identify it and like name it.

24:22 Definitely like the first couple of times I felt burnout, I just pushed through it because I felt like that was what I was supposed to do. Like, you know, like, you know, I would just tell myself like you're you're not motivated enough or you don't want it enough or you're being ungrateful or you're being lazy.

24:39 Like I have all these things that I'd say to myself when I my body is like trying to stop me and make me pull back. I don't recognize what's happening. And so I think I'm just losing motivation or whatever. And so I'm pushing through it and it's just getting worse. And I every time burnout would happen like that would just be it.

24:59 Right. So I think like even if you've never burnt out, just reading through it and kind of learning about what are the signs of it. Maybe you have a chance of like recognizing it and like understanding like, oh, I'm headed down this path before you hit it.

25:15 Because they're really if you're not if you're not like intentionally if you're working like in excess and you're not intentionally resting or like planning your time or whatever. I think it is quite inevitable to eventually hit a wall. And it might be like really confusing, like what's happening.

25:32 And you might talk or try to talk yourself out of it and then kind of make your problems worth worse. I think about how much like yoga changed my life. It's like surface level. It feels like, oh, you're just doing these movements and you're stretching. But when you do yoga, like you learn the names of like so many different muscles and movements.

25:51 And you're like almost learning a couple like two different languages and you're learning like the language of your body, too, and how things feel and how they're supposed to feel and like what your limits are like. Oh, you're doing this stretch. And it's like if you feel this, then that's OK. But if you feel that, then that's too far and you need to pull back.

26:08 And yoga has given me like a vocabulary to take care of my physical body in a way I never understood. And so I like to think of the Developer Health OS of doing something similar of like helping you give names to things and, you know, context around what we're experiencing in our minds, too.

26:27 Yeah, I think that mindfulness helps a ton to be able to say, like, I am feeling, you know, some specific thing that I can name and I can talk about. And I know what to do when I start feeling this way so that I can ultimately like even if you're just selfishly wanting.

26:44 Well, not selfish, at least the wrong word, but like even if you just want to be able to produce at a higher output, then learning the proper way to like sharpen the saw or whatever is is going to help you accomplish that.

27:01 And so this isn't just for people who have, you know, fallen down the hill and they're trying to make their way back up. This is for people who want to experience on here.

27:12 You say that restful work is the ultimate goal here to to like have the type of work that is you at your peak.

27:22 And one of the things that I experienced a while or about a year ago this time was I was due to a series of unfortunate commitments that I made for myself.

27:36 I had to work an insane amount of time very quickly. And so I just made a lot of different commitments and was working like probably 14 hour days for six weeks in a row. It was not great.

27:50 That said, I acknowledged how important it was for me to take care of my my physical and mental health during that time. And I was able to output very well because I knew what to do as far as sleep. I didn't I would get eight hours of sleep. I was very committed to that and I would exercise in the morning.

28:08 I would I did all the things and I would I don't work on Sundays typically. So I would take Sundays off. And so even in those situations, I took I did the things you're supposed to do. And I don't think that I could have accomplished that type of work and that output had I not done those things.

28:26 And so if you think that you can just power through and that's how you can deliver your best work. I think that's wrong. Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that.

28:38 I think planning your rest is so important and you can get you can get so much more out of that energy that you have to work. If you also plan your rest as well. I got kind of called out a little bit at React Miami like for this. I was asked, like, well, how can you preach this like work life balance?

28:57 You organize a conference. There's no way that you're like doing this day nine to five. And I was like, you're totally right. Like especially for these like three or four days, it's like I'm not sleeping.

29:08 But with that said, like two months ago, I had a conversation with my team that, you know, right after React Miami, there's going to be I'm going to be at like half capacity for the first couple of days. And then I'm going to be off and then and then I'm going to be back and then I'm going to be off again.

29:24 Like we planned it so that it's like, OK, you can't just once a conference is over, you can't just be like, all right, it's done. There's like a lot of things that you still have to do, but you can like plan that work and you can plan that with rest. So it's like knowing when you can like recover and like being able to recover is so important.

29:40 And you mentioned sleep. If there's like one thing to fix first out of everything on your list, start with sleep because it's the foundation of everything and it's how your body recovers and restores itself.

29:53 Like once you can do that, like everything else, I think becomes a lot easier than trying to change a bunch of habits on top of like a lack of sleep. It just doesn't make sense. So like if you get sleep right first. That's where I recommend to start.

30:10 Yeah, very good. Good tip there also. That's just like a little taste of what there is. But if you want more, then you should go to devhealthos.com because there's so much more to be had there.

30:26 So Michelle, before we wrap up here, what is your primary goal here?

30:33 Like why do you commit so much time and energy into like taking all this research and boiling it down into something that's consumable for developers? Yeah, wouldn't it just be enough for you to know this yourself and then you can go and be a high output developer?

30:52 Why do you care so much to share this with people? I mean, I think like I really I care about our community and I think Gabe does too. The React community in particular like is the one that we are the most connected with.

31:07 But I mean, our developer community at large like so it hurts to see people go through the things that you went through that hurt you too. And so it's it's good to like try and make this to like share knowledge to give back.

31:21 But like also to like kind of prevent like, you know, I don't know if unnecessary is the right word, but like kind of like unnecessary struggles or whatever. Like if we can everybody doesn't have to experience everything in a silo or like learn everything the hard way themselves.

31:40 If we can share knowledge and get it out there, then that is such that's such like what more could you want than for the people that you care about to be well? Oh, I love that. Just put that on a plaque. What more could you want than to have the people that you care about be well?

31:59 I love that. Michelle, this has been super great. As we wound down, is there anything that you really were hoping we would talk about that we didn't get to talk about today? Oh, man. No, I think this was already a dream and I'm happy to have been able to talk about two of the things that I love the most.

32:17 React Miami and the DevHealth OS. So I'm very I'm very happy with this. Super. Well, I hope everybody listening can make you even more happy by checking out both of these things that you love.

32:29 I think that they're fantastic and would love for people to get into both of these things. So, yeah, what Michelle, what's the best way for people to connect with you if they want to ask you some questions or anything?

32:46 I'm Michelle Bakels on Twitter and you can find me on LinkedIn, too. I have an uncommon name. So if you find me, then it is most likely me. And, yeah, my DMs everywhere should be open. Awesome.

33:02 Thank you so much, Michelle. I really appreciate you and everything that you do for the community in your local area and also just at large as well. So thank you, Michelle. You're an inspiration to us and hope you have a wonderful day. Thanks, Ken. I appreciate it. Bye, everyone.